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Because of her actions many decades before the events of this book, the Gamaches and Jeanne Caron have a very difficult relationship. Although Jeanne Caron saves Armand’s life by the end of The Grey Wolf, Reine-Marie cannot bring herself to forgive her because of what Caron did to their son. Do you think Reine-Marie’s continued rage is justified? Would you be able to forgive?
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A direct threat to one’s child is about as enraged as a mother may become. She has held this rage for a very long time and in doing so it continued to serve as a defensive measure should it reappear. We tend to think of Rein Marie as nurturing and patient, and this realistic and justifiable side of her is an example of Louise not brushing tough situations under the carpet. She may yet change if she believes this woman can now be trusted. I would pray to forgive as I find rage is personally unhealthy and overall destructive. I suspect I could overcome the intense rage, but I would never let my guard down again.
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I can relate as well. I feel that there are some people who are toxic, unable to deal with their issues and unaware or uncaring of how they impact others. Does everyone deserve forgiveness? Or that their past poor behaviours are forgotten? I don’t think so. But I also try to live with anger or hate or any negativity. My choice is to avoid and lessen the impact of toxic people in my life. If they are not a part of my life, I don’t think about them at all. I live with contentment, surrounded by people who bring positivity and love into my life.
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Mamma bear is a vicious adversary if her cubs are threatened. Reine-Marie is the mamma bear when it comes to Daniel and what Jeanne Caron did to him. How she used her power to frame Daniel, sending him to prison which caused him to relapse after beating his addiction to drugs, and causing him to contemplate suicide is unconscionable. There are just some things that are unforgivable and to me this is one of them. I stand with Reine-Marie on this. I feel her pain and think she is justified in her rage. You just don’t mess with our children. Time might soften the edges of a mamma bear’s rage but it will never completely erase it.
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Forgiveness is a topic we’ve discussed before in our group, but I’ll never tire of it. I still think about some of the comments from that conversation, (thank you Jane and Amy), where the concept was expanded from asking for or granting forgiveness, to include another context, which was accepting it. I’m always interested in hearing everyone’s thoughts and struggles with this concept because I think forgiveness does mean different things to different people.
I agree with and can understand everything everyone has said here so far. With respect to Reine-Marie, I again agree with everyone. She has a right to feel how she does. Carol makes a great point that this is an example of LP not brushing tough situations under the carpet. Our image of Reine-Marie as nurturing and patient is complicated by this unforgiving nature, although it is realistic and justifiable and makes her even more real and human.
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The wound that Jean Caron inflicted upon Gamache’s family was extremely deep, and nearly fatal. I totally understand and empathize with Reine-Marie’s reaction to her. I think if I were in her shoes that I would have been grateful that JC saved Armand’s life, but I would be skeptical of her motives as to whether she had truly changed enough to be acting purely out of goodness. I don’t think I could ever forgive the act that she’d perpetrated earlier, but maybe, maybe, if she proves to have truly become a better person in the future, and had true remorse, I might be able to have a civil relationship of some sort with her. I do believe that some people can change, if they want to badly enough, and people who do very stupid, horrible things in their youth can sometimes atone and become better people. That said, I think I would go out of my way to avoid ever being in her presence again if I could help it. And I doubt very much if I would ever really trust her, deep down. I would always wonder if JC’s black wolf was going to be fed again.
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I agree with everyone that what Jeanne Caron did was terrible. Reine-Marie is definitely not open to seeing beyond what Jeanne did to Daniel and the family. But, I see Reine-Marie’s feelings conflicting and somewhat irrational. I do not see how Reine-Marie can be appreciative of Jeanne saving Armand and only experience rage at the sight of Jeanne. To me, it just seems out of character for Reine-Marie to have such rage and for it not to be manifested in other ways in her life. That kind of emotional rage, even if boxed in can only eventually destroy a person; it has to come out. It is not healthy to keep it bottled up inside. Not having had any children, I cannot say how I would act. From experience, I know that repressing emotions, especially negative ones, can be damaging.
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This is another one of those questions that becomes more nuanced with every comment I read!
I also enjoy the way LP includes forgiveness as a theme in so many books; I find it a powerful topic and one I also enjoy discussing. I see multiple examples of it in TGW although Reine-Marie’s feelings are most explicit. (Maybe a future discussion question?)
Forgiveness means, for me, both the idea of ceasing to feel resentment or deciding to leave those feelings behind and the more powerful idea of reconciliation. One is entirely personal; the other is interpersonal occurring in a relationship. I also think forgiveness is not an entitlement or a quid pro quo. Granted Jeanne Caron saved Armand’s life but that does not cancel the harm she did to Daniel, Armand and Reine-Marie or the years of pain for them or automatically make her deserving of forgiveness.
I find it interesting to compare Reine-Marie’s responses to others who have betrayed any of the Gamache family, betrayals that also risked their lives. I don’t think Reine-Marie ever forgave Michel Brebeuf for his betrayal of Armand. Yet, she visited Fiona Arsenault (WOC) in prison following Fiona’s complicity with Fleming. LP doesn’t really say what happened but I think the visit was almost certainly at least a step toward forgiveness. Perhaps, Reine-Marie saw more genuine remorse in Fiona.
I am uncertain of Jeanne Caron’s sincerity. I thought her stated intent to seek out Daniel to apologize sounded self-serving and presumptuous. One may deserve an apology and want nothing to do with the person offering it. I think if I had been Reine-Marie, I might have said something unprintable. For that reason, I have some sympathy with Reine-Marie. For the reasons Nancy mentions, I hope she could move past or through her anger but I understand not wanting anything to do with Jeanne Caron. I doubt that I would be able to do more than decide to move on.
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You’re right Jane, this is a very interesting conversation! I think that you’re very right Nancy, in that it seems at odds that Reine-Marie can both appreciate Jeanne saving Armand and still feel rage towards her. I do think that humans can be very irrational in any number of ways. And as Jane has so eloquently expressed, forgiveness is not necessarily an entitlement or quid pro quo. The complexities of human behaviour and emotion are reflected beautifully in LP’s work in this way, aren’t they? And the theme of forgiveness is infinitely complex in how different people interpret it and how their interpretations frame their understanding and acceptance of other people’s behaviour.
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Only the person who experiences the situation can best judge whether they can forgive someone or not for a hurtful act. I think Reine-Marie has a mother’s rage just as others have said and it’s not going to go away easily because she will always want to protect her son.
I do think LP tries to show that Jeanne Caron is actively seeking forgiveness and redemption at the end of the book. At her uncle’s funeral she says something and Armand has to ask Reine-Marie what she said. Reine-Marie answers, “I think she said, ‘Forgive me.’” Caron also testifies in court against her boss, the Deputy PM, which leads to his arrest. And, of course, she saves Gamache’s life. She also tells Gamache that she hopes Reine-Marie may be able to forgive her one day. I would consider forgiving her given she saved Gamache. But Reine-Marie will need time, perhaps, to process all this new information about Caron and reflect on whether she can forgive her. Although Reine-Marie’s harsh reaction when meeting Caron at the bistro is uncharacteristic of her, I thought her reaction was authentic. Not having Reine-Marie instantly forgive her rang true. Even if she does eventually forgive Caron, I think she will always want to fiercely watch out for Daniel and Gamache.
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I am not necessarily doubting Jeanne Caron’s sincerity in asking for forgiveness. I am remembering another LP book that speaks to the idea of forgiveness and redemption, “A Trick of the Light.” This is the scene in which Armand reveals who has murdered Lillian Dyson and why. He asks the three AA members the wording of the Twelve Steps that discusses making amends. “Make direct amends to such people wherever possible,” said Suzanne. “Except when to do so would injure them or others,” said Brian. “But how could an apology ever hurt someone?” asked Paulette. “By reopening old wounds,” said Suzanne.
Caron has reopened old wounds for Reine-Marie. Feelings don’t particularly care about the intent, even if it is a genuine effort to make amends or follows heroic action. That is what I don’t think Jeanne Caron gets. I hope she does and expect to see her again in “The Black Wolf.”
I think Reine-Marie may get to genuine forgiveness, if Jeanne Caron is willing to follow Brian’s example of patient acceptance.
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I think what makes this particular instance with Jeanne Caron and Rein-Marie so difficult to amend is that Daniel and Armand are still in the process of rebuilding a healthy and strong relationship with each other. After all this time there is still a fragile nature to their relationship. Reine-Marie must be holding her breathe every time she hears Jeanne’s name as well as every time there is the slightest difference in opinion between Daniel and his dad. Who knows what might trigger a relapse for Daniel. That fear, always lurking in the background of my soul, would make it impossible for me to come to the table and negotiate some kind of truce with Jeanne. There is a lot of room between me and my red line. There is a lot of room for forgiveness. But once my red line is crossed, and what Jeanne has done would definitely be crossing that red line, there is no going back for me. I feel that is where Reine-Marie stands on this situation.
This will sit very dark and heavy in both of these women’s longhouses.-
Agree! I remember Reine-Marie in ATDAH trying to mediate between Daniel and Armand. Even though Armand listens to her, it still looked like a very tough and lonely spot to be in.
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Agree, well said Jane. Sometimes we don’t realize the pain until it catches our attention again. And we had that post on the home page feed that spoke to rage, didn’t we? Behind rage is fear. So Reine-Marie the mamma bear will always fear for the safety of her cubs, as all mothers do. Or as anyone who loves another person deeply and cares for their safety and well being.
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I agree with Reine-Marie’s perspective. Some things are unforgivable and if the person who has crossed that line with you is not someone you need to interact with very frequently, then does as long as your feelings don’t negatively impact your life, then I think you have a right to dislike and avoid people who have proven themselves to be unkind, untrustworthy, unethical, etc. I believe that behaviours and feelings are only problematic if they interfere with your ability to enjoy life. So if you are angry with someone, but only feel that anger when you see them then maybe it isn’t a problem, especially if you rarely, if ever, see that person. I’m not sure how much Reine-Marie and Caron will cross paths in the future.
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I think Reine-Marie rightly blames Jeanne Caron for the pain she inflicted on her family. Daniel attempted suicide and it caused a painful rift between father and son. This is not something I think would be easy to forgive. I just don’t see Reine-Marie enjoying a coffee or tea with Jeanne or inviting her to family parties, so does she really need to forgive her? I guess that comes down to whether or not her anger at Jeanne Caron is tearing her up inside. It’s difficult to carry around anger and rage because it will eventually exhaust you. So I feel that letting go of the anger and forgiving is often more for yourself than for the other person.
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